IRC logs for TTFA2 meeting 2
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**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Apr 13 14:02:02 2012 Apr 13 14:02:02 * Now talking on #ttfa Apr 13 14:02:05 <BenG> hi Apr 13 14:02:12 <penguin> Ola Apr 13 14:02:12 <mickfuzz> hi there Apr 13 14:02:37 <penguin> Mick - what do u wanna talk about? Apr 13 14:03:03 <mickfuzz> a couple of things - but mostly getting a process and timescale for the ttfa leaflet in place Apr 13 14:03:25 <mickfuzz> and looking at the suggestion for booksprint Apr 13 14:03:34 <mickfuzz> can we do it etc Apr 13 14:03:48 <mickfuzz> how about you guys Apr 13 14:04:06 <penguin> happy with that Apr 13 14:04:09 <BenG> happy to have the booksprint Apr 13 14:04:34 <BenG> we have art, we have writers and a focus for the release Apr 13 14:04:46 <mickfuzz> ok are you ok with the timing end of may? Apr 13 14:04:53 <BenG> yes Apr 13 14:05:09 <penguin> me too Apr 13 14:05:18 <mickfuzz> ok cool - I think if we set the date then at least a couple of others will make it Apr 13 14:05:23 <mickfuzz> and I think that's totally enough Apr 13 14:05:32 <BenG> more the better though Apr 13 14:05:48 <mickfuzz> for sure Apr 13 14:06:01 <mickfuzz> but no need to cancel if not i would say Apr 13 14:06:08 <penguin> not inc u 2, 3 people have said they can make it so far Apr 13 14:06:11 <mickfuzz> i can only do the sunday - Apr 13 14:06:24 <mickfuzz> but i can do the monday to finish things off if needed Apr 13 14:06:57 <BenG> sure me too Apr 13 14:07:16 <BenG> what where the exact dates? Apr 13 14:07:47 <penguin> 26-7 may (plus Monday if we want) Apr 13 14:08:15 <mickfuzz> ok is it bank holiday? Apr 13 14:08:52 <penguin> no - it's the week before Apr 13 14:09:08 <mickfuzz> ok Apr 13 14:09:24 <mickfuzz> the other thing was about the scope of the booksprint - specifically for things that don't fit in the booklet Apr 13 14:09:45 <penguin> sat moe Apr 13 14:09:52 <penguin> say more even Apr 13 14:09:59 <mickfuzz> I'd like to do a 'hand outs' manual - to support workshops Apr 13 14:10:08 <mickfuzz> with step by step instructions for things Apr 13 14:10:15 <mickfuzz> some are already out there Apr 13 14:10:23 <mickfuzz> eg for email and enigmail Apr 13 14:10:38 <BenG> the booksprint took about how long last time? Apr 13 14:10:45 <BenG> most of one day I think Apr 13 14:10:58 <BenG> so we should have time for something else Apr 13 14:11:04 <penguin> that's right, but ... Apr 13 14:11:23 <penguin> I've found it quite hard to get involved in the booklet... Apr 13 14:11:43 <BenG> what have been the boundaries penguin ? Apr 13 14:12:06 <penguin> I don't wanna be over critical, but I think it's quite a long way from plain english e.g. Apr 13 14:12:23 <BenG> not its very true Apr 13 14:12:33 * BenG tries again Apr 13 14:12:46 <BenG> penguin, i agree, its not plian english Apr 13 14:12:46 <penguin> I asked around 20 people about ip logging. none knew what it was. Apr 13 14:13:04 <mickfuzz> ok that's a good focus Apr 13 14:13:16 <BenG> that's a core focus Apr 13 14:13:22 <BenG> making it make sense Apr 13 14:13:28 <penguin> when I went on to ip address, none knew they had one so when we say 'we dont log IP add.@ it doesn't mean much Apr 13 14:13:29 <mickfuzz> can we have try to get a couple of non tech writers there Apr 13 14:14:12 <mickfuzz> When you visit a website, you leave a record of what is called your IP (Internet Protocol) address behind. This is unique to you and it is linked to the home address that the computer is being used at by your ISP (Internet Service Provider eg. BT or Virgin). The police, scammers or advertisers can use this information to find out who has looked at what site and when. Your web browser is also likely to be disclosing all sorts of information abo Apr 13 14:14:12 <mickfuzz> ut itself, and, by implication, about you too, without you knowing it. Apr 13 14:14:30 <mickfuzz> is what we have so far Apr 13 14:14:35 <mickfuzz> i'm sure that can be better Apr 13 14:14:44 <BenG> not too bad though Apr 13 14:14:56 <BenG> but yes, we need a much wider range of people there Apr 13 14:15:11 <BenG> writers and non-techs, proof readers Apr 13 14:15:32 <BenG> we should see what we have a as a raw template Apr 13 14:15:54 <BenG> a backbone onto which we needs build a animal Apr 13 14:16:12 <penguin> perhaps it's a ground rules issue Apr 13 14:16:19 <BenG> hmmm? Apr 13 14:16:22 <mickfuzz> there is a lot of good stuff from the website which can be reimported Apr 13 14:16:43 <penguin> non tech / plain eng. people feel comfortable in editing and tech writer feel comfortable in being edited. Apr 13 14:16:56 <BenG> yep Apr 13 14:17:02 <BenG> sounds like a good policy Apr 13 14:17:10 <mickfuzz> for sure Apr 13 14:17:26 <BenG> I think though that this sort of thing needs sorting out when we see who's there Apr 13 14:17:44 <BenG> we need to make sure everyone is in an environment where they can be productive Apr 13 14:17:51 <mickfuzz> ok so should we try to bring one non-tech writer each? Apr 13 14:18:00 <BenG> good aim, yes Apr 13 14:18:34 <BenG> good aim, yes/ Apr 13 14:18:43 <BenG> could we have something to bribe them with? Apr 13 14:18:55 <mickfuzz> the illusion of kudos Apr 13 14:18:58 <mickfuzz> ? Apr 13 14:19:07 <mickfuzz> cake? Apr 13 14:19:18 <BenG> "come to Oxford and let geeks try to explain difficult technical issues to you" Apr 13 14:19:20 <mickfuzz> badges? Apr 13 14:19:44 * BenG feels mickfuzz has a better line on reward schemes Apr 13 14:20:20 <mickfuzz> put it on your jobseekers cv as a mini-internship? Apr 13 14:20:59 * BenG back in a second, loo trip Apr 13 14:21:15 <penguin> i think there are some good plain writers in ttfa / HL Apr 13 14:21:43 <mickfuzz> not too plain I would hope :) Apr 13 14:21:48 <penguin> Charlie, Beth, and me (plus others i'm sure) Apr 13 14:21:58 <mickfuzz> I agree Apr 13 14:22:23 <penguin> I wonder if it's more about roles - some people have writing the orginal as a task, then others have editing as a tak Apr 13 14:22:47 <penguin> it always easier to edit other people's work rather than your own Apr 13 14:22:55 <mickfuzz> that's true Apr 13 14:23:01 <BenG> where you at the last booksprint penguin ? Apr 13 14:23:11 <BenG> all that stuff pretty much happened anyway Apr 13 14:23:18 <mickfuzz> i started a chapter here Apr 13 14:23:20 <mickfuzz> http://booki.flossmanuals.net/tech-tools-for-activists-2/_edit/ Apr 13 14:23:43 <mickfuzz> on Notes for version 2 - which asks which chapters need serious writing Apr 13 14:23:53 <mickfuzz> or a bit of writing Apr 13 14:24:02 <mickfuzz> or just editing / pictures Apr 13 14:24:28 <penguin> BenG: yes - but as an observer really. I think what quite often happen was very tech people edited other very tech people Apr 13 14:24:56 <penguin> and there was lots of talk about not following the advise was mean you would die IIRC Apr 13 14:24:56 <BenG> but only they turned up Apr 13 14:25:18 <BenG> only techs turned up Apr 13 14:25:28 <BenG> and the talk was banter really Apr 13 14:25:33 <mickfuzz> ok so we need a good invite - and probably personally ringing people up to ask them i reckon Apr 13 14:25:37 <BenG> a lot of words got edited Apr 13 14:25:53 <penguin> well, I know charlie's up for it, and so am i Apr 13 14:26:20 <penguin> perhaps if good editor cannot be there, we could ask if they might work from home and email them stuff? Apr 13 14:26:48 <mickfuzz> if they can do it real time that could work Apr 13 14:27:03 <mickfuzz> on the weekend Apr 13 14:27:05 <BenG> I still think booki sucks Apr 13 14:27:12 <penguin> +1 Apr 13 14:27:15 <BenG> and would prefer to do it on mediawiki Apr 13 14:27:21 <penguin> +1 Apr 13 14:27:34 <mickfuzz> i think it's very late to change the working process Apr 13 14:28:03 <mickfuzz> and there are a lot of advantages to doing it as part of that ecosystem Apr 13 14:28:11 <BenG> cutting pasting to our wiki is not a big problem Apr 13 14:29:05 <mickfuzz> moving to media wiki is a big problem for me Apr 13 14:29:09 <BenG> and I've not seen any advantages to whatever ecosystem there is Apr 13 14:29:19 <mickfuzz> i can go into details Apr 13 14:29:33 <BenG> you seem to be the only contribution who likes booki though mickfuzz Apr 13 14:29:42 <BenG> you seem to be the only contributor who likes booki though mickfuzz Apr 13 14:30:24 <BenG> sorry mickfuzz, it just sucks Apr 13 14:30:37 <mickfuzz> there's a lot of advantages to using booki Apr 13 14:31:02 <mickfuzz> output to epub, oo, html and pdf being one Apr 13 14:31:48 <mickfuzz> does media wiki have a wysiwig editor? Apr 13 14:32:04 <BenG> we've not found any advantage to the wide range output formats yet Apr 13 14:32:10 <BenG> since they are all badly formatted Apr 13 14:32:25 <BenG> you can plug a wysiwig editer into mediawiki Apr 13 14:33:30 <BenG> but you are not seriously suggesting that booki is wysiwyg Apr 13 14:33:31 <BenG> ? Apr 13 14:33:35 <mickfuzz> so you'd rather develop a new publishing platform with lots of plugins than use one which is set up with all the content already in it Apr 13 14:33:55 <BenG> no, I'd rather use mediawiki Apr 13 14:34:07 <BenG> which is already set up, but doens't have the content in it yet Apr 13 14:34:41 <BenG> you've been trying to sell us booki for years now and its still generally disliked Apr 13 14:34:57 <penguin> I dont have an issue with using booki as a publishing platform ... Apr 13 14:35:13 <BenG> no me neither Apr 13 14:35:14 <penguin> it's as an editing platform that I don't like it Apr 13 14:35:20 <BenG> I just don't like using it Apr 13 14:35:29 <BenG> I've tried repeatedly Apr 13 14:35:57 <penguin> and in my limited experience, no platform does good automatic exporting to different formats Apr 13 14:36:21 <mickfuzz> ok - i'll give in Apr 13 14:36:45 <mickfuzz> but can you add a wysiwig to media wiki Apr 13 14:36:48 <mickfuzz> ? Apr 13 14:36:58 <penguin> I'll have a go Apr 13 14:37:03 <mickfuzz> as that's very key for me Apr 13 14:37:07 <BenG> we already have one on hacktivista Apr 13 14:37:18 <BenG> simply click the "rich editor" button Apr 13 14:38:19 <mickfuzz> you can't upload an image - but ok it does work Apr 13 14:39:09 <mickfuzz> so i agree Apr 13 14:39:12 <mickfuzz> but Apr 13 14:39:15 <BenG> I think mike turned that off, but ask him if he'll "fix" it Apr 13 14:39:16 <mickfuzz> can we do the companion hand out booklet on FM? Apr 13 14:39:36 <mickfuzz> as there is lots of material that can be remixed for it easily in FM Apr 13 14:39:43 <BenG> remixed? Apr 13 14:39:56 <BenG> can they sort of feed through, so our docs get updated? Apr 13 14:39:59 <mickfuzz> you can import another chapter from another book - and then edit it Apr 13 14:40:18 <BenG> but it then becomes part of yours and not updated from the source? Apr 13 14:40:31 <BenG> I think it would be good for us to be contributing to FM Apr 13 14:40:34 <mickfuzz> you get all the screenshots etc without having to reupload them Apr 13 14:40:57 <mickfuzz> BenG agreed - that was really my main aim Apr 13 14:41:05 <BenG> are there existing FM docs we could just expand/contribute too? Apr 13 14:41:12 <mickfuzz> lots Apr 13 14:41:26 <BenG> yes, but ones relevant to our festival handouts? Apr 13 14:41:36 <mickfuzz> i've linked to many in the existing booklet text Apr 13 14:41:43 <BenG> sure Apr 13 14:41:47 <mickfuzz> email is a big one, tor, Apr 13 14:41:55 <mickfuzz> vpn Apr 13 14:42:08 <mickfuzz> wordpress blogging Apr 13 14:42:18 <mickfuzz> audacity and ardour Apr 13 14:42:32 <penguin> is it useful to think of the handouts in 3 categories ... Apr 13 14:42:49 <penguin> 1. stuff that doesn't exist, so we make it Apr 13 14:43:05 <penguin> 2. Stuff that exists, but needs us to edit it Apr 13 14:43:33 <penguin> 3. Stuff that exists and needs no changes (e.g. Enigmail quick start guide is good IIRC) Apr 13 14:43:49 <mickfuzz> sound great Apr 13 14:44:39 <BenG> mickfuzz, thanks for conceding on booki for the TTFA booklet, this feels an historic moment Apr 13 14:44:47 <mickfuzz> :) Apr 13 14:45:07 <mickfuzz> can you do me a favour tho Apr 13 14:45:22 <mickfuzz> can you send feedback to the developers saying why this decisions was taken Apr 13 14:45:25 <mickfuzz> doesn't have to be long Apr 13 14:45:28 <BenG> and if it all goes much worse than the previous booksprint, you have full gloating rights Apr 13 14:45:32 <BenG> yes sure Apr 13 14:45:36 <mickfuzz> but longer than 'it sucks' Apr 13 14:45:52 <BenG> awww man, I have so much to say about WHY is sucks Apr 13 14:45:57 <mickfuzz> i'm sure it'll be 'easier' - as media wiki is very stable Apr 13 14:46:23 <mickfuzz> but it's a work in progress blah blah Apr 13 14:46:40 <BenG> well there are advantages to booki I'll be sad to lose, like the per page chat and seeing who's editing Apr 13 14:46:45 <mickfuzz> anyway - it's all good - you guys evaluated it - it sucked - you gave feedback Apr 13 14:46:58 <mickfuzz> they can then improve it Apr 13 14:47:10 <mickfuzz> :) Apr 13 14:47:15 <BenG> let's not go into it now Apr 13 14:47:20 <mickfuzz> sure Apr 13 14:47:25 <BenG> I'll provide a very depthful write up Apr 13 14:48:10 <BenG> where were we? Apr 13 14:48:17 <mickfuzz> http://forum.sourcefabric.org/categories/booktype-support Apr 13 14:48:20 <mickfuzz> for ref Apr 13 14:48:33 <penguin> so, here's what i think we have agreed ... Apr 13 14:48:34 <mickfuzz> 3 types of hand out docs Apr 13 14:48:46 <penguin> 1. Use mediawiki for editing Apr 13 14:49:08 <penguin> 2. Have booksprint in last w/end of May Apr 13 14:49:30 <BenG> <mickfuzz> ok so we need a good invite - and probably personally ringing people up to ask them i reckon Apr 13 14:49:30 <BenG> <BenG> a lot of words got edited Apr 13 14:49:30 <BenG> <penguin> well, I know charlie's up for it, and so am i Apr 13 14:49:30 <BenG> <penguin> perhaps if good editor cannot be there, we could ask if they might work from home and email them stuff? Apr 13 14:49:30 <BenG> <mickfuzz> if they can do it real time that could work Apr 13 14:49:30 <BenG> <mickfuzz> on the weekend Apr 13 14:50:02 <mickfuzz> or beforehand Apr 13 14:50:07 <BenG> yep Apr 13 14:50:24 <BenG> damn, I'm meant to be co-ordinator, this sounds like work Apr 13 14:51:21 <penguin> i'm happy to draft an invite email Apr 13 14:51:21 <mickfuzz> start copying and pasting :P Apr 13 14:52:07 <penguin> also assuming me to do logistics for the event (need to talk about that in a bit) Apr 13 14:52:20 <mickfuzz> k Apr 13 14:53:11 <BenG> how about now penguin ? Apr 13 14:53:19 <BenG> logistics? Apr 13 14:54:05 <penguin> so, i was hoping to make in a bit more minimal that other gatherings Apr 13 14:54:11 <penguin> so i can book space Apr 13 14:54:23 <penguin> and sort crash space Apr 13 14:54:46 <penguin> but i didn't want to get involved in food - there are loads of local places availabl;e Apr 13 14:56:11 <mickfuzz> i think that's fine Apr 13 14:56:20 <penguin> and I'm not as good a cook as protag! Apr 13 14:56:47 <BenG> maybe invite a cook too Apr 13 14:56:58 <BenG> but yes, it shouldn't be crucial to the gig Apr 13 14:57:21 <penguin> I'll have a word with Charlie - if you like chille Apr 13 14:57:41 <BenG> lunches would be handy to keep us going and avoid lunch faff Apr 13 14:57:59 <BenG> but it doesn't have to be your remit penguin Apr 13 14:58:35 <mickfuzz> yes - we can play it by ear Apr 13 14:58:39 <penguin> on lunch, we could just get one person to get take out and bring it back Apr 13 14:58:54 <BenG> true Apr 13 14:58:57 <mickfuzz> or one person eat and bring it up Apr 13 14:59:02 <mickfuzz> sorry Apr 13 14:59:06 <penguin> not as cheap as self catering, but easier Apr 13 14:59:33 <penguin> mick: please go into the naughty corner and think about what you've said Apr 13 14:59:40 <mickfuzz> :) Apr 13 15:00:07 <mickfuzz> equipment list - do you need anything brought? Apr 13 15:00:12 <mickfuzz> projector ? Apr 13 15:00:16 <mickfuzz> raveoke? Apr 13 15:00:30 <BenG> ah, now, that might be a selling point for non-techs Apr 13 15:01:11 <mickfuzz> no we need people who can read and write Apr 13 15:01:17 <mickfuzz> still Apr 13 15:01:18 <penguin> equip wise, i reckon we'll be fine. will let you know if not. Apr 13 15:01:56 <mickfuzz> about incentive Apr 13 15:02:04 <mickfuzz> book writing credit may help Apr 13 15:02:10 <mickfuzz> we didn't do that last time Apr 13 15:02:30 <mickfuzz> we should decide if we want to put in authours names Apr 13 15:02:39 <mickfuzz> as some people do care - esp writers Apr 13 15:02:39 <penguin> Ents wise (if that what raveoke is ;-P ) - do you think we should do our own thing, or just enjoy the public delights of oxford Apr 13 15:03:10 <BenG> again, play by ear, put the word out, see if people want to entertain maybe Apr 13 15:03:17 <penguin> " book writing credit may help" +1 if people want it. Same for illustrators Apr 13 15:03:47 * penguin loo break Apr 13 15:05:19 <mickfuzz> ok - of course optional credit if people want it Apr 13 15:06:59 <penguin> 1 practical thing - oarc - the space i'm planning on using holds 15 people comfortably. 20 at a squeeze. that OK? Apr 13 15:07:23 <penguin> it's the same place as the last book sprint Apr 13 15:07:28 <mickfuzz> that's fine i'm sure Apr 13 15:07:43 <BenG> yeah 20 is fine Apr 13 15:08:02 <mickfuzz> when are you going to migrate the content Ben? Apr 13 15:08:02 <BenG> if we've got that many we've done exceptionally well Apr 13 15:08:12 <mickfuzz> i'd be happy with 5 Apr 13 15:08:13 <mickfuzz> ? Apr 13 15:08:18 <mickfuzz> :) Apr 13 15:08:45 <mickfuzz> actually just let me know when you are about to migrate it so I don't update the wrong one Apr 13 15:08:54 <mickfuzz> that's all i'm thinking Apr 13 15:09:42 <mickfuzz> anything else? Apr 13 15:10:12 <penguin> yeah, before i forget ... Apr 13 15:10:20 <penguin> https://cuteoverload.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/kitten_in_blender.jpg?w=560&h=768 Apr 13 15:10:56 <penguin> cos i have a reputation to maintain Apr 13 15:11:32 <BenG> mickfuzz, when I've done the groundwork Apr 13 15:11:44 <BenG> I'll tidy the wiki and put up some guidelines for use Apr 13 15:12:06 <BenG> as one of the bad points with mediawiki is that its flexible and people get up to all sorts of stuff on there Apr 13 15:14:10 <mickfuzz> ok Apr 13 15:14:28 <mickfuzz> great stuf Apr 13 15:14:35 <penguin> i think we've covered everything? Apr 13 15:15:06 <mickfuzz> me too Apr 13 15:15:51 <penguin> anything else from you BG Apr 13 15:16:26 <mickfuzz> oh one thing Apr 13 15:16:55 <mickfuzz> have a look at the notes chapter at the beginning of the current manual Apr 13 15:17:29 <mickfuzz> lists the existing chapters and work needed Apr 13 15:17:39 <mickfuzz> and the same thing for hand outs Apr 13 15:17:46 <mickfuzz> or hold on Apr 13 15:17:51 <penguin> got a link? Apr 13 15:17:51 <mickfuzz> all copy and paste Apr 13 15:18:01 <mickfuzz> http://booki.flossmanuals.net/tech-tools-for-activists-2/_edit/ Apr 13 15:18:01 <BenG> cheers all Apr 13 15:18:06 <mickfuzz> Notes for version 2 Apr 13 15:18:06 <mickfuzz> Put notes here for booklet and Hand Out resources Apr 13 15:18:06 <mickfuzz> Booklet Apr 13 15:18:06 <mickfuzz> Chapters in need of heavy rewriting Apr 13 15:18:06 <mickfuzz> Green computing Apr 13 15:18:07 <mickfuzz> Chapters that need some rewriting and checking Apr 13 15:18:09 <mickfuzz> Uploading Media to the Internet Apr 13 15:18:11 <mickfuzz> Mostly proofreading, adding images and link updating needed Apr 13 15:18:13 <mickfuzz> Securely Delete Files Apr 13 15:18:15 <mickfuzz> Hand out Apr 13 15:18:17 <mickfuzz> Hand outs that don't exist Apr 13 15:18:19 <mickfuzz> Identi.ca Hands on guide / Indy.im used in screenshots Apr 13 15:18:23 <mickfuzz> Handouts that exists, but needs us to edit them Apr 13 15:18:25 <mickfuzz> Pidgin Off The Record Apr 13 15:18:27 <mickfuzz> Anonymous Blogging - some as part of the WordPress chapter but needs editing down Apr 13 15:18:29 <mickfuzz> Handouts that exist and need no changes Apr 13 15:18:31 <mickfuzz> Enigmail quick start guide - Apr 13 15:18:33 <mickfuzz> >> so add to that if you have time Apr 13 15:18:35 <mickfuzz> nice one Apr 13 15:18:37 <mickfuzz> cya Apr 13 15:18:40 * BenG distracted by mum's internet trouble Apr 13 15:18:58 * penguin off to get sun. Cheers chaps Apr 13 15:19:05 <BenG> laterz Apr 13 15:19:08 <mickfuzz> bye Apr 13 15:19:15 * penguin has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) Apr 13 15:19:21 <BenG> will let you know about ttfa migration son Apr 13 15:19:24 <BenG> soon Apr 13 15:19:57 <mickfuzz> cool Apr 13 15:19:59 <mickfuzz> cya Apr 13 15:20:02 * mickfuzz has quit (Quit: Leaving) **** ENDING LOGGING AT Fri Apr 13 15:21:02 2012
