IRC logs for TTFA2 meeting

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Nov 18 19:59:27 <BenG>	yo yo yo
Nov 18 19:59:28 <beth>	Hi Ben
Nov 18 19:59:29 <marker>	hi Ben
Nov 18 19:59:45 <bou>	hey thanks for coming :)
Nov 18 19:59:46 <BenG>	no trouble getting on here then beth
Nov 18 19:59:58 <beth>	yep, easier than I expected
Nov 18 20:00:20 <BenG>	cool
Nov 18 20:00:39 <BenG>	I'll just go and get some Sambuca then we'll start, that okay?
Nov 18 20:00:46 <BenG>	are we waiting on penguin?
Nov 18 20:00:53 <bou>	kind of
Nov 18 20:00:58 <BenG>	we should give him 5 I guess
Nov 18 20:01:06 *	penguin ( has joined #hacktionlab
Nov 18 20:01:13 <BenG>	:)
Nov 18 20:01:14 <BenG>	hi penguin 
Nov 18 20:01:20 <beth>	hi penguin
Nov 18 20:01:21 <penguin>	Hey BG
Nov 18 20:01:30 *	marker wishes he also had Sambuca
Nov 18 20:01:30 <penguin>	Hi Beth
Nov 18 20:01:53 <beth>	have you ever had black sambucca? It's amazing
Nov 18 20:01:58 *	bou gives channel operator status to penguin BenG beth marker
Nov 18 20:02:19 <marker>	beth: sounds a bit... odd?!
Nov 18 20:02:50 <beth>	it's a really intense flavour, I've only seen it in a couple of shops in the UK though
Nov 18 20:04:50 <bou>	have we all looked at the agenda?
Nov 18 20:04:57 <bou>
Nov 18 20:05:01 *	bou has changed the topic to:
Nov 18 20:05:24 <BenG>	yeah, it's black sambuca
Nov 18 20:05:31 <beth>	yum!
Nov 18 20:05:39 <BenG>	you can do have black sambuca with half vodka
Nov 18 20:05:47 <beth>	I am particularly interested in the bits about links and kittens in the agenda
Nov 18 20:06:12 <BenG>	sort of like a black russian but with the kahlua replaced with black S
Nov 18 20:07:04 <beth>	sounds good
Nov 18 20:07:38 <BenG>	but actually, I've decided to go for a dry martini
Nov 18 20:07:40 *	m3shrom ( has joined #hacktionlab
Nov 18 20:07:42 <m3shrom>	hi
Nov 18 20:07:45 <penguin>	happy with agenda
Nov 18 20:07:52 <beth>	hullo m3shrom
Nov 18 20:07:52 <marker>	hi m3shrom 
Nov 18 20:07:58 <penguin>	anybody have other stuff to add?
Nov 18 20:08:08 *	marker also happy with agenda
Nov 18 20:08:31 <m3shrom>	i'll go with it - as i'm late
Nov 18 20:08:42 <beth>	happy with it too
Nov 18 20:08:43 <marker>	penguin: I have some thought about target audience when we get there, but I'll let you start if you like
Nov 18 20:09:05 <bou>	we're just looking at agenda, haven't started yet, m3shrom 
Nov 18 20:09:23 *	bou gives channel operator status to m3shrom
Nov 18 20:09:37 <BenG>	okay agenda
Nov 18 20:09:42 <BenG>	    Sorting out how links to web documentation. (MH)
Nov 18 20:09:42 <BenG>	    Review of current quality levels. (BG)
Nov 18 20:09:42 <BenG>	    Agree / restate what the target audience is for TTfA (penguin)
Nov 18 20:09:42 <BenG>	    Agree / restate what we are trying to convey (e.g. why to do something, how do do something) (penguin)
Nov 18 20:09:42 <BenG>	    Should each article have a common structure? If so, what? (penguin)
Nov 18 20:09:42 <BenG>	    Should there be more kittens in the booklet? (tabby)
Nov 18 20:09:42 <BenG>	    Develop task list to move forward & assign roles as far as possible (penguin) 
Nov 18 20:10:38 <bou>	not sure if we have MH here
Nov 18 20:11:00 <bou>	so if we're going in order of agenda points, maybe best if BenG soots about links and web documentation?
Nov 18 20:11:01 <BenG>	we don't I'm calling him now
Nov 18 20:11:18 <BenG>	ringing
Nov 18 20:11:20 <BenG>	...
Nov 18 20:11:26 <bou>	we can leave it for later in the meeting ...
Nov 18 20:12:42 <penguin>	sounds good to me
Nov 18 20:12:49 *	#hacktionlab :End of Channel Ban List
Nov 18 20:12:50 *	#hacktionlab :End of Channel Ban List
Nov 18 20:13:17 <BenG>	okay lets start ploughing through
Nov 18 20:13:25 <bou>	i don't want to take over the whole thing but i'd rather move on than all waiting ...
Nov 18 20:13:33 <BenG>	actually, is it okay if I facilitate?
Nov 18 20:13:40 <bou>	yes go ahead
Nov 18 20:13:42 <beth>	yep fine
Nov 18 20:13:46 <marker>	yes
Nov 18 20:13:49 <BenG>	is anyone logging this?
Nov 18 20:13:52 <bou>	do you want us to raise hands when we want to talk?
Nov 18 20:14:00 <BenG>	lol
Nov 18 20:14:05 <bou>	i can copy paste if you want ...
Nov 18 20:14:07 <beth>	jazz hands
Nov 18 20:14:07 *	BenG waves hands about
Nov 18 20:14:25 <BenG>	no it's fine, I am logging here
Nov 18 20:14:28 <BenG>	now
Nov 18 20:14:42 <BenG>	beth, to emote stuff do like /me stuff I'm doing
Nov 18 20:14:50 <BenG>	so that would come out like this:
Nov 18 20:14:57 *	beth tentatively tries new feature
Nov 18 20:14:57 *	BenG stuff I'm doing
Nov 18 20:15:02 <BenG>	cool
Nov 18 20:15:06 <BenG>	right then
Nov 18 20:15:20 <BenG>	type when you want
Nov 18 20:15:33 <BenG>	okay first agenda point
Nov 18 20:15:46 <BenG>	Sorting out how links to web documentation
Nov 18 20:15:49 <BenG>	====================================
Nov 18 20:16:00 <BenG>	that sentence doesn't make sense
Nov 18 20:16:02 <BenG>	but anyway
Nov 18 20:16:20 <beth>	The method I've been using for links is to use the shortener
Nov 18 20:16:32 <beth>	but I think the jury is still out on underlining
Nov 18 20:16:34 <BenG>	mike reckons we make our own redirection service using the domain
Nov 18 20:16:43 <penguin>	i think it's about do we want further explaination of stuff in the book on a web site
Nov 18 20:16:50 <marker>	I recall that the booki shortened links were not really short?
Nov 18 20:16:55 <BenG>	so for example redirects about
Nov 18 20:17:02 <bou>	and ended up not working?
Nov 18 20:17:03 <BenG>	so for example redirects about
Nov 18 20:17:18 <BenG>	marker, they were short, but now they don't work
Nov 18 20:17:20 <m3shrom>	there is an issue about shorteners being blocked in china too
Nov 18 20:17:36 <m3shrom>	not sure if that is an issue for us
Nov 18 20:17:50 <bou>	i think 1st issue is, do we want links at all
Nov 18 20:17:54 <bou>	see penguin's question
Nov 18 20:17:55 <marker>	how about printing QR codes instead of shortened links?
Nov 18 20:18:00 <bou>	if we want, how do we want it
Nov 18 20:18:02 <bou>	but first, do we
Nov 18 20:18:10 <beth>	there could definitely be a permanent url somewhere in the booklet saying "if you type in a url and it doesn't work, check here" 
Nov 18 20:18:11 <BenG>	how do people feel about using our own redirection service as
Nov 18 20:18:22 <beth>	that sounds okay but is a bit long
Nov 18 20:18:47 <BenG>	yes... but we if we have all links in the books based off of
Nov 18 20:18:52 <marker>	BenG: it would have to be something we were confident we could keep running for the rest of history, or we'd break the web
Nov 18 20:18:59 <beth>	I like the sound of QR codes but text urls are needed as well for those of us without smartphones
Nov 18 20:19:02 <BenG>	then they want just be in the book like LINK:anarchy
Nov 18 20:19:11 <bou>	i think it's about do we want further explaination of stuff in the book on a web site - if penguin doesn't think we want it, we should discuss it?
Nov 18 20:19:49 <bou>	penguin, 
Nov 18 20:19:53 <BenG>	marker, exactly that would be reason to use our own domain
Nov 18 20:19:53 <penguin>	i think there are 2 questions ...
Nov 18 20:19:54 <bou>	3... 2.... 1.. are you there?
Nov 18 20:19:55 <bou>	ah
Nov 18 20:20:09 <BenG>	guys listen to penguins questoins
Nov 18 20:20:18 <penguin>	1 how/if to use link shortners
Nov 18 20:20:18 <BenG>	...
Nov 18 20:20:35 <penguin>	2. how to link content in the booklet to content on HL site
Nov 18 20:20:40 *	bou suggests we type in a text editor locally what we want to say so we don't need to wait so much ...
Nov 18 20:21:00 <BenG>	no bou, just type it's fine
Nov 18 20:21:10 <bou>	penguin, if you do have an issue with putting further info online, say sao,
Nov 18 20:21:12 <bou>	say so
Nov 18 20:21:30 <penguin>	no - i think it would be good
Nov 18 20:21:33 <bou>	otherwise there is no disagreement, every one else seems keen to have links :)
Nov 18 20:21:34 <BenG>	cool
Nov 18 20:21:35 <bou>	ok
Nov 18 20:21:39 <m3shrom>	about linking to content - where do we ideally want to link to? something like a wiki or something that looks a bit nicer?
Nov 18 20:21:43 <penguin>	was just trying to clarify what i thought the topic was
Nov 18 20:21:44 <BenG>	any objections to more online content?
Nov 18 20:21:50 <beth>	nope
Nov 18 20:22:03 <bou>	no
Nov 18 20:22:11 <marker>	fine by me
Nov 18 20:22:17 <bou>	re: where to link to - id rather have a blog in network23
Nov 18 20:22:21 <bou>	it looks nice enough
Nov 18 20:22:25 <BenG>	peeps, can I just take a minute to rephrase penguins questions in line with the conversation me and mike have had about this
Nov 18 20:22:27 <bou>	and can be deited collaboratively
Nov 18 20:22:32 <bou>	ok
Nov 18 20:23:19 <BenG>	the problems:
Nov 18 20:23:32 <BenG>	the links in the old leaflet pointed to flossmanuals
Nov 18 20:23:39 <BenG>	flossmanuals moved the links
Nov 18 20:23:46 <BenG>	the old leaflet doesn't work
Nov 18 20:23:54 <BenG>	erm...
Nov 18 20:24:21 <BenG>	the links in the old one were inconsistent, some named, some random characters
Nov 18 20:24:27 <BenG>	that's about it
Nov 18 20:24:34 <BenG>	so mike and my proposal is this:
Nov 18 20:24:58 <BenG>	1/ use our own redirections server (
Nov 18 20:25:23 <BenG>	2/ be able to edit our own collection of links to the best piece of documentation we know about
Nov 18 20:25:56 <BenG>	3/ use word based links e.g.
Nov 18 20:25:58 <bou>	so we would still link to sites we don't control, like floss manuals?
Nov 18 20:26:08 <BenG>	absolutley
Nov 18 20:26:22 <BenG>	but if we disagreed with anything, we could move the link to point elsewhere
Nov 18 20:26:28 <bou>	then they move their pages and same problem again
Nov 18 20:26:36 <BenG>	or if they moved content, we could still follow it
Nov 18 20:26:42 <bou>	yes, problem is, you can't move links once they are printed on a booklet...
Nov 18 20:26:49 <BenG>	yes you can
Nov 18 20:26:50 <m3shrom>	i can get an agree ment from floss that they won't change links again!
Nov 18 20:26:54 <beth>	you can change where they are redirected to
Nov 18 20:27:01 <BenG> can be redirected anywhere
Nov 18 20:27:09 <bou>	ah ok
Nov 18 20:27:10 <beth>	that sounds like a good idea to me
Nov 18 20:27:13 <BenG>	that's the whole point of managing our own links
Nov 18 20:27:18 <BenG>	but also
Nov 18 20:27:24 <beth>	my only criticism would be that the url is longer than I'd like
Nov 18 20:27:27 <bou>	how many people control ?
Nov 18 20:27:41 <BenG>	that needs talking about bou, but just one more point
Nov 18 20:27:47 <bou>	as in, on how many people do we depend?
Nov 18 20:27:47 <bou>	ok
Nov 18 20:28:18 <BenG>	4/ we wouldn't use in each page of the booklet, we'd like LINK:blog-security
Nov 18 20:28:53 <BenG>	and the index page for could show all the current links - perhaps with a brief description
Nov 18 20:29:02 <BenG>	okay, who would control this?
Nov 18 20:29:04 <beth>	so would that tell users to go to or would they go to the index page and click on the link?
Nov 18 20:29:12 <BenG>	either really
Nov 18 20:29:19 <BenG>	it needs to be fairly gumby proof
Nov 18 20:29:29 <bou>	gumby?
Nov 18 20:29:38 <m3shrom>	I think linking directly to the page is ideal if possible
Nov 18 20:29:41 <marker>	BenG: is LINK:blog-security an expression in a markup language or have I missed the point?
Nov 18 20:29:43 <m3shrom>	as gumby proof
Nov 18 20:29:54 <BenG>	D P Gumby - monty python character
Nov 18 20:30:15 <bou>	we need to remember we're writing for idiots, right?
Nov 18 20:30:17 <m3shrom>	i just send the following in an email to floss
Nov 18 20:30:23 <BenG>	marker, nope, we just put that in the text, and people would read the instruction about how use the hacktion-links
Nov 18 20:30:25 <bou>	then i think we need to put the links in full
Nov 18 20:30:41 <bou>	adn we're talking about a booklet so people don't "click" on links
Nov 18 20:30:52 <bou>	they need to type it on their computer as they read a printed out booklet
Nov 18 20:30:57 <m3shrom>	I'm working a collective to create a booklet on activist security, and we the link that we had no longer work. I have a bit of an idea of the reason why and that fixing this isn't very easy to do.
Nov 18 20:30:57 <m3shrom>	For the next version, should we create our own redirects on our own site, or can we get some kind of commitment that current URLs won't change.
Nov 18 20:31:10 <marker>	OK, how about we just use numbered footnotes, the footer containing the full link?
Nov 18 20:31:13 <beth>	yes, what if people turn straight to the page they are interested in and don't check the instructions on how to go to the links
Nov 18 20:31:22 <beth>	I like the footnotes idea
Nov 18 20:31:25 <bou>	marker, that's an idea
Nov 18 20:31:25 <BenG>	m3shrom, I think we still need redirectable links
Nov 18 20:31:42 <m3shrom>	ok - fair enough
Nov 18 20:31:57 <BenG>	footnotes idea beth?
Nov 18 20:32:06 <beth>	what marker said
Nov 18 20:32:07 <bou>	i think the thing is a good idea, gives "us" control
Nov 18 20:32:16 <bou>	yes BenG , the foot notes idea :)
Nov 18 20:32:18 <m3shrom>	and extra work!
Nov 18 20:32:31 <bou>	m3shrom, at the beginning yes
Nov 18 20:32:36 <BenG>	m3shrom, at the moment, we've got a leaflet thayt doesn't work :(
Nov 18 20:32:49 <BenG>	so extra work at least means functional
Nov 18 20:32:51 <m3shrom>	ok!
Nov 18 20:32:55 <BenG>	and mike is up for doing it
Nov 18 20:32:55 <bou>	but having links that don't work because a group we don't control changes their links is unaceptable
Nov 18 20:33:22 <bou>	so, any objections to ?
Nov 18 20:33:23 <BenG>	but is there much we can do about that bou?
Nov 18 20:33:27 <penguin>	my problem with full urls is some of them are so loong i'll never type them in
Nov 18 20:33:31 <marker>	we could use one of those services that tells you when the content of a page changes, so we could make sure the targets were still appropriate each time
Nov 18 20:33:43 <penguin>	so +1 to a shortner that we control
Nov 18 20:33:50 <BenG>	marker, no to corporate services
Nov 18 20:34:02 <BenG>	we did have a look and there was nothign suitable
Nov 18 20:34:14 <bou>	marker, we can't make sure targets are appropriate each time¬
Nov 18 20:34:21 <penguin>	how about ?
Nov 18 20:34:23 <bou>	we are printing a booklet every 2-3 years!
Nov 18 20:34:31 <penguin>	sorry,
Nov 18 20:34:50 <bou>	penguin, is that the shortener uses?
Nov 18 20:34:54 <beth>	yes
Nov 18 20:35:00 <marker>	bou: I meant that every time a target changes, we need to make sure that it is still a good target
Nov 18 20:35:03 <beth> is what I'd been using as a shortener
Nov 18 20:35:18 <beth>	but I think changing a link requires asking aland
Nov 18 20:35:22 <beth>	who is a pretty busy person
Nov 18 20:35:25 <BenG>	okay but we don't control that, and you can't change what each link links to
Nov 18 20:35:31 <bou>	marker, i don't understand how to do that without redirects.hacktivista
Nov 18 20:35:33 <m3shrom>	we could install one 
Nov 18 20:35:40 <m3shrom>	a link shortener
Nov 18 20:35:55 <bou>	we could use for
Nov 18 20:35:59 <BenG>	there are no FLOSS ones that allow further editing of links m3shrom 
Nov 18 20:36:03 <bou>	which could redirect to
Nov 18 20:36:12 <bou>	which could then redirect to the page we want to actually link to...
Nov 18 20:36:16 <BenG>	hmmmm
Nov 18 20:36:19 <bou>	then alan doesn't need to change anything
Nov 18 20:36:24 <beth>	and it's shorter
Nov 18 20:36:29 <marker>	bou: indeed, we need to control our redirects, I'm saying that we also need to keep checking the targets so we can change the redirect if the thing we've linked to stop being good for any reason
Nov 18 20:36:54 <BenG>	we need to move on from this discussion soon
Nov 18 20:37:08 <beth>	marker that doesn't sound like a bad idea, I guess a bash script using wget and diff could do the job? I regret saying this as I don't want to volunteer to do it
Nov 18 20:37:16 <marker>	guys, how about as a shortner points to
Nov 18 20:37:28 <bou>	that was my idea :p
Nov 18 20:37:29 <beth>	I like it
Nov 18 20:37:29 <marker>	that way we get shortening and control
Nov 18 20:37:32 <bou>	me too :)
Nov 18 20:37:36 <BenG>	it seems the only thing stopping us using redirects is it's length
Nov 18 20:37:49 <bou>	and we get around it with :)
Nov 18 20:37:55 <beth>	because, fuck typing
Nov 18 20:37:55 <BenG>	we also get another layer of complexity though sadly
Nov 18 20:38:15 <bou>	erm no
Nov 18 20:38:21 <bou>	ok maybe
Nov 18 20:38:28 <BenG>	not for the user hopefully
Nov 18 20:38:29 <bou>	but it is the least complex of all layers we can think of :)
Nov 18 20:38:40 <BenG>	so we'd have:
Nov 18 20:39:21 <BenG> links to
Nov 18 20:39:56 <BenG>	doesn't seem worth depending on someone else service 
Nov 18 20:40:00 *	bou wouldn't say links but redirects, but yes
Nov 18 20:40:10 <m3shrom>	ok
Nov 18 20:40:16 <marker>	ok
Nov 18 20:40:25 <bou>	i do think it is worth
Nov 18 20:40:32 <BenG>	we are all clued up around the issues, I'm sure if we move on a mull it over
Nov 18 20:40:38 <bou>	and i wouldn't call alan "some one else" but then iwork with him...
Nov 18 20:40:40 <BenG>	it will work itself out in our heads
Nov 18 20:40:40 <beth>	so do I, and that "someone else" is indymedia, not google
Nov 18 20:41:06 <BenG>	yes, indymedia, no organisational problems there then
Nov 18 20:41:08 *	BenG smirks
Nov 18 20:41:14 *	marker LOL
Nov 18 20:41:16 <beth>	lol okay, shall we move on?
Nov 18 20:41:19 <BenG>	yep
Nov 18 20:41:23 <m3shrom>	yes
Nov 18 20:41:27 <bou>	if we need to move on, i'd say let's put it to the hacktionlab list as a proposal from this meeting
Nov 18 20:41:31 <bou>	and alan is not indymedia btw
Nov 18 20:41:39 <BenG>	for sure
Nov 18 20:41:43 <bou>	and is not an indymedia domain at all
Nov 18 20:41:45 <bou>	so let's move on
Nov 18 20:41:47 <marker>	beth: I like the wget | diff idea
Nov 18 20:41:55 <BenG>	Review of current quality levels. (BG) 
Nov 18 20:41:59 <BenG>	===========================
Nov 18 20:42:16 <beth>	I would describe the current quality levels as medium high
Nov 18 20:42:22 <BenG>	basically, I've been intending to review all the current pieces for quality levels
Nov 18 20:42:40 <BenG>	they vary between pieces, so I was hoping to have a review of it al
Nov 18 20:42:42 <BenG>	all
Nov 18 20:42:48 <BenG>	I haven't done this yet
Nov 18 20:42:57 <bou>	you want to review it all in this meeting?
Nov 18 20:43:04 <BenG>	no
Nov 18 20:43:05 <BenG>
Nov 18 20:43:20 <BenG>	what I wanted to do was have that section section of the wiki filled in
Nov 18 20:43:24 *	bou reading
Nov 18 20:43:31 <BenG>	and to present it to you at this meeting
Nov 18 20:43:38 <BenG>	but I didn't get round to it
Nov 18 20:44:05 <marker>	maybe come back to that at a future meeting?
Nov 18 20:44:28 <BenG>	well, I'm hoping NOW to dish out articles to people and get them to take a share of the reviews
Nov 18 20:44:32 <bou>	thing is, if some one wants the content to be better, then they/you can edit it using booki?
Nov 18 20:44:33 <BenG>	how do people feel about that
Nov 18 20:44:42 <marker>	cool
Nov 18 20:44:52 <beth>	BenG that's fine
Nov 18 20:44:56 <bou>	i don't feel able to review the quality
Nov 18 20:45:01 <BenG>	bou, yes, but we need to have a feel for current state of the booklet and agree some ways forward
Nov 18 20:45:02 <m3shrom>
Nov 18 20:45:03 <bou>	like beth, i think it is good
Nov 18 20:45:13 <m3shrom>	is where the current working version is
Nov 18 20:45:24 <m3shrom>	work logging in if you haven't already
Nov 18 20:45:37 <bou>	thanks m3shrom we should all have that link very present
Nov 18 20:45:45 *	bou has changed the topic to:
Nov 18 20:45:55 <m3shrom>	why not just start working out who want to review and rewrite chapters?
Nov 18 20:46:10 <BenG>	sounds good m3shrom 
Nov 18 20:46:16 <penguin>	i think we need to look at ...
Nov 18 20:46:25 <penguin>	who the target audience is and ...
Nov 18 20:46:29 <m3shrom>	i wrote some of the video stuff and it needs changing and updating
Nov 18 20:46:45 <penguin>	what we are trying to convey
Nov 18 20:46:49 *	bou thinks penguin really wants to talk about the target audience :)
Nov 18 20:46:51 <marker>	penguin: jazz hands
Nov 18 20:46:59 <m3shrom>	i would say what I wrote was a bit too general for our target user
Nov 18 20:47:10 <penguin>	before I can give any views about whether the book currently does this
Nov 18 20:47:22 <bou>	i'd suggest describing our target user
Nov 18 20:47:27 <bou>	maybe each of us
Nov 18 20:47:32 <BenG>	could you stick all that stuff in the review m3shrom ?
Nov 18 20:47:42 <bou>	and see if we can agree on what type of user is our target reader
Nov 18 20:48:05 <m3shrom>	ok review space?
Nov 18 20:48:16 <bou>	do we want to do this now or write separately after this meeting?
Nov 18 20:48:33 *	bou woudl prefer to talk about the target user too
Nov 18 20:48:51 *	bou would want to hear what penguin has in mind first tho
Nov 18 20:48:54 <m3shrom>	ok well what did we have last time
Nov 18 20:49:02 <m3shrom>	i would be happy to talk about it
Nov 18 20:49:38 <BenG>	okay
Nov 18 20:49:56 <BenG>	look on the notes tab on the flossmanuals site
Nov 18 20:50:07 <bou>	from my point of view , and just because no one seems to want to type here now ... is that the team that first met and drafted didn't quite discuss it because each chapter has a "geekness level", sometimes very different, but i may be mistaken because i wasn't there,
Nov 18 20:50:44 <bou>	but my impression was that some chapters were for the very beginners and some chapters were a lot more advanced
Nov 18 20:50:48 <BenG>	we all edited it together bou
Nov 18 20:51:02 <BenG>	and tried to make it all completely for beginners
Nov 18 20:51:15 <m3shrom>	some subjects are more advanced than others tho i guess
Nov 18 20:51:25 <bou>	so
Nov 18 20:51:28 <m3shrom>	and we were pretty charitable about not trashing other peoples writing
Nov 18 20:51:28 <bou>	for this time,
Nov 18 20:51:34 <BenG>	also, I don't think we did that good a job of ungeeking it
Nov 18 20:51:48 <bou>	do we want to still target the beginners?
Nov 18 20:52:00 <BenG>	abso-fricking-lutely
Nov 18 20:52:03 <beth>	agreed
Nov 18 20:52:09 <penguin>	yep
Nov 18 20:52:11 <m3shrom>	cut and paste alert 
Nov 18 20:52:20 <BenG>	m3shrom,  eh?
Nov 18 20:52:21 <bou>	ok seems we're on the same page then
Nov 18 20:52:21 <m3shrom>	style guide from last one coming up
Nov 18 20:52:31 <BenG>	isnt' that in the notes m3shrom 
Nov 18 20:52:34 <beth>	ok you have warned us enough just post it m3shrom
Nov 18 20:52:39 <m3shrom>	Style Guide:
Nov 18 20:52:39 <m3shrom>	----------------
Nov 18 20:52:39 <m3shrom>	* 1,200 for the Intro and 600 words for each chapter aka article:  Make it shorter if you can and accept that some could be longer.
Nov 18 20:52:39 <m3shrom>	* Articles are self-contained in their own right, bound together by the introduction.
Nov 18 20:52:39 <m3shrom>	* Article format ought to be: user story, current practice, software solution, (optional user story)
Nov 18 20:52:40 <beth>	NO WAIT I'M NOT READY
Nov 18 20:52:41 <m3shrom>	* Articles should be introductions, without going into detailed step-by-step instructions: signposts to the information on the net.
Nov 18 20:52:46 <m3shrom>	* Articles are limited to being about software technology.
Nov 18 20:52:48 <m3shrom>	* It's a guide for NGO and grass roots activists. 
Nov 18 20:52:50 <m3shrom>	* Focus should be on helping people to approach these topics, not be dictatorial nor about scare-mongering.
Nov 18 20:52:53 <m3shrom>	* Humour and pictures should be used where possible, but not over used.
Nov 18 20:52:55 <m3shrom>	* Images should be between 200 and 300 pixels wide, get a suitable image resolution.
Nov 18 20:52:57 <m3shrom>	* Only use headers for title of the article and sub-headings.
Nov 18 20:52:59 <m3shrom>	* It will be a PDF.
Nov 18 20:53:01 <m3shrom>	* Anything we control is under CC attribution licence.  Add licensing info and sources to the to article itself.
Nov 18 20:53:30 <m3shrom>	this is in the notes section here 
Nov 18 20:53:33 <m3shrom>
Nov 18 20:53:38 <m3shrom>	so we can alter it maybe
Nov 18 20:53:44 <bou>	ok thanks
Nov 18 20:53:46 <BenG>	it's one of the other agenda points
Nov 18 20:53:47 <bou>	yes
Nov 18 20:54:19 <bou>	so i've gathered from your comments that we may need to be less charitable with each other's content
Nov 18 20:54:28 <bou>	and more strict about de-geeking the text/s
Nov 18 20:54:44 <m3shrom>	yeah sure - if we can help each other do that
Nov 18 20:54:47 <BenG>	sounds good
Nov 18 20:54:56 <beth>	yep sounds good
Nov 18 20:54:57 <bou>	also in my opinion, this sentnce:
Nov 18 20:55:01 <bou>	 without going into detailed step-by-step instructions
Nov 18 20:55:05 <BenG>	our feedback has been that people couldn't understand it
Nov 18 20:55:06 <bou>	and going for the non geek,
Nov 18 20:55:11 <bou>	might be contradictory
Nov 18 20:55:28 <bou>	non geeks do / may well need step-by-step instructions ...
Nov 18 20:55:42 <BenG>	but there's not enough space for that in the booklet
Nov 18 20:55:42 <m3shrom>	not in this leaflet tho, we link out to that
Nov 18 20:55:44 <marker>	trouble is, without detailed instructions, we don't put the tools into people's hands
Nov 18 20:55:58 <BenG>	marker, no, we put them on the web
Nov 18 20:56:00 <bou>	wow - people could not understand it? 
Nov 18 20:56:04 <bou>	that's serious
Nov 18 20:56:16 <marker>	BenG: OK, I see
Nov 18 20:56:17 <BenG>	bou, indeed the world is fuba
Nov 18 20:56:20 <penguin>	Bou - there was an idea that the book would say why people might do something ...
Nov 18 20:56:37 <penguin>	and then there would be links to tell them how to do it
Nov 18 20:56:43 <bou>	ok
Nov 18 20:56:47 <bou>	so for this time,
Nov 18 20:57:00 <bou>	i see the need to have access not just to edit the book
Nov 18 20:57:04 <bou>	but also what people see on the links
Nov 18 20:57:07 <marker>	penguin: what you just said needs to be in the introduction
Nov 18 20:57:08 <BenG>	penguin, indeed, that used to be the user journeys, but we talked about scrapping them
Nov 18 20:57:24 <m3shrom>	i think we should replace them with something else
Nov 18 20:57:33 <BenG>	<bou> but also what people see on the links
Nov 18 20:57:37 *	bou lost - what is them?
Nov 18 20:57:50 <BenG>	we alwasy use publicly editable resources on our links
Nov 18 20:57:51 <m3shrom>	a real life example? rather than imagine user story?
Nov 18 20:57:55 <m3shrom>	there are now plenty
Nov 18 20:58:15 <BenG>	we discussed something very different at the yellow bricks gathering
Nov 18 20:58:23 <bou>	m3shrom, you are introducing a brand new topic without getting out of the previous one :)
Nov 18 20:58:33 <BenG>	simple short descriptions of what each chapter was about was suggested
Nov 18 20:58:58 *	BenG thinks we haven't formally moved on from the second agenda point
Nov 18 20:59:19 <BenG>	which was...
Nov 18 20:59:37 <BenG>	Review of current quality levels. (BG) 
Nov 18 20:59:40 <BenG>	==========================
Nov 18 20:59:51 <BenG>	we've done a bit of that
Nov 18 20:59:58 <bou>	thanks
Nov 18 21:00:01 <BenG>	which is good
Nov 18 21:00:02 <m3shrom>	peer review on an ongoing basis 
Nov 18 21:00:12 <m3shrom>	in a supportive way
Nov 18 21:00:15 <BenG>	okay, but can we fill out that page on the wiki?
Nov 18 21:00:15 <bou>	can we go back to the issue of people saying they couldn't understand it?
Nov 18 21:00:31 <BenG>	no, let's nail this agenda point first :)
Nov 18 21:00:36 <m3shrom>	and maybe a 'useful idiot' to check it also
Nov 18 21:00:56 <bou>	well if people don't understand it then its crap quality level...
Nov 18 21:01:09 <BenG>	true
Nov 18 21:01:21 <marker>	ACK
Nov 18 21:01:32 <BenG>	I think m3shrom's actuall quote from someone was "I wish I coudl understand all of that"
Nov 18 21:01:41 <bou>	we would need to know what they could not undersand (although i can guess...) and address it
Nov 18 21:01:42 <penguin>	i'm up for taking to some useful idiots i know and feeding back
Nov 18 21:01:45 <BenG>	rather than that they didn't understand any of it
Nov 18 21:01:59 <BenG>	penguin, yep that's essential for this release I think
Nov 18 21:02:03 <m3shrom>	i think that this is a good level
Nov 18 21:02:16 <bou>	i think i can get some intelligent idiots too :)
Nov 18 21:02:20 <m3shrom>	but it is quite long in it's style
Nov 18 21:02:52 <marker>	did we nick their idea about user journeys?
Nov 18 21:03:07 <BenG>	"No matter how much effort you have put into building a digital barrier around your computer, you could still wake up one morning to find that it, or a copy of the information on it, has been lost, stolen, or damaged by any number of unfortunate accidents or malicious acts. Anything from a power surge to an open window to a spilt cup of coffee might lead to a situation in which all of your data are lost and you are
Nov 18 21:03:07 <BenG>	 no longer able to use your computer. A careful risk assessment, a consistent effort to maintain a healthy computing environment and a written security policy can help avoid this type of diaster."
Nov 18 21:03:18 <BenG>	now that's a conscise and useful introduction
Nov 18 21:03:35 <BenG>	but it's also most of the content
Nov 18 21:03:50 <BenG>	we could follow that example, base the booklet around that, and then link out
Nov 18 21:04:30 <bou>	personally i don't like that idea ... i like the structure as it currently is
Nov 18 21:04:38 <bou>	i do think it is useful
Nov 18 21:04:41 <m3shrom>	it's all under an open licence too
Nov 18 21:04:59 <m3shrom>	so we can adapt stuff if needed
Nov 18 21:05:43 <m3shrom>	bou it's a similar structure really 
Nov 18 21:06:04 <m3shrom>	user story, explanation and links to useful tools
Nov 18 21:06:19 <BenG>	hey all, is anyone up for doing content reviews on the wiki, or should I just drop that idea?
Nov 18 21:06:21 <bou>	i think the user story should be the shorter
Nov 18 21:06:24 <bou>	shortest
Nov 18 21:06:38 <BenG>	we talked about ditching them all together bou
Nov 18 21:07:05 <BenG>	content reviews - anyone up for it or no?
Nov 18 21:07:07 <m3shrom>	I like the idea of at least one example of why it's real
Nov 18 21:07:08 <bou>	really?
Nov 18 21:07:12 <m3shrom>	BenG - not me
Nov 18 21:07:23 <marker>	BenG: I'm up for it if others are, but we do still need to be explicit about our target group...
Nov 18 21:07:24 <bou>	yes, let's use real life examples if possible
Nov 18 21:07:40 <marker>	... e.g., do they know how to use a command line interface or not?
Nov 18 21:07:44 <BenG>	marker, yes but that's the next agenda point
Nov 18 21:07:54 <beth>	BenG I'm up for it but only for a chapter or two
Nov 18 21:08:13 <BenG>	I'm up for it too
Nov 18 21:08:29 <BenG>	lets just do what that and see if it makes sense and is productive
Nov 18 21:08:30 <bou>	review as in, giving a critique of what is currently there?
Nov 18 21:08:47 <BenG>	yeah, brief though, and with positive suggestions for change
Nov 18 21:08:51 <bou>	i think we should warn people to not make personal comments and authors to not make comments personally
Nov 18 21:09:15 <marker>	we should write our reviews where? notes on booki?
Nov 18 21:09:23 <BenG>	no, on the wiki
Nov 18 21:09:38 <bou>	i'm not sure i'd be up for it... would rather agree on a re-write ... but if you're all up for it that's fine with me too
Nov 18 21:09:43 <BenG>	as I suggested and posted a link to at the start of this agenda item marker 
Nov 18 21:10:16 <BenG>	there's mixed opinions and ideas bou
Nov 18 21:10:35 <BenG>	lets have the people who want to review, to review and see if it's productive
Nov 18 21:10:47 <BenG>	we need to have what we had a the booksprint
Nov 18 21:11:05 <penguin>	How about this ...#
Nov 18 21:11:11 <BenG>	people need to say somewhere "this is too long but I don't know how to cut it down"
Nov 18 21:11:17 <penguin>	1. use the wiki for peope
Nov 18 21:11:28 <BenG>	the pope?
Nov 18 21:11:48 <penguin>	 1. use the wiki for people to say what they like and what they dont (in a sensitive manner)
Nov 18 21:11:59 <BenG>	+!
Nov 18 21:12:02 <BenG>	+1
Nov 18 21:12:13 <penguin>	2. Others that are up for it incorporate this into a rewrite 
Nov 18 21:12:53 <BenG>	sounds good to me penguin 
Nov 18 21:13:06 <BenG>	let's finish up on this topic
Nov 18 21:13:11 <penguin>	And provide the pope with a personal copy
Nov 18 21:13:35 <beth>	1. yes 2. yes
Nov 18 21:13:41 <BenG>	any more on this agenda item?
Nov 18 21:13:49 <penguin>	not from me
Nov 18 21:13:55 <beth>	penguin definitely do the pope thing
Nov 18 21:14:23 <BenG>	can we have a 5 minute break now
Nov 18 21:14:29 <BenG>	I've ran out of martini
Nov 18 21:15:04 <beth>	I've eaten a whole bag of onion rings in the last hour
Nov 18 21:15:10 <BenG>	all the other agenda points are from penguin 
Nov 18 21:15:45 <BenG>	Agree / restate what the target audience is for TTfA (penguin)
Nov 18 21:15:45 <BenG>	Agree / restate what we are trying to convey (e.g. why to do something, how do do something) (penguin)
Nov 18 21:15:45 <BenG>	Should each article have a common structure? If so, what? (penguin)
Nov 18 21:15:45 <BenG>	Should there be more kittens in the booklet? (tabby)
Nov 18 21:15:45 <BenG>	Develop task list to move forward & assign roles as far as possible (penguin) 
Nov 18 21:16:18 <BenG>	I'm ignoring the tabby's comment as they aren't here
Nov 18 21:16:28 <beth>	kittens kittens kittens kittens
Nov 18 21:16:40 <BenG>	okay peeps, youtube break
Nov 18 21:16:51 <BenG>
Nov 18 21:16:56 <BenG>	cat related
Nov 18 21:17:04 <BenG>	see you in 2mins
Nov 18 21:17:22 <m3shrom>	i've got to go - sorry about that but i'm up for doing an inicial rewrite on 'uploading media' - 'status net' - 'anonymous blogging' 
Nov 18 21:19:41 <BenG>	cheers m3shrom 
Nov 18 21:20:16 <BenG>	we all ready to start on the 
Nov 18 21:20:20 <BenG>	Agree / restate what the target audience is for TTfA (penguin) 
Nov 18 21:20:23 <BenG>	==============================================
Nov 18 21:20:46 <BenG>	did we do this in any of the previous section?
Nov 18 21:21:12 <beth>	IRC goes silent until the cat video finishes
Nov 18 21:21:20 *	m3shrom has quit (Quit: Leaving)
Nov 18 21:21:23 <BenG>	we've all seen the previous style guide now
Nov 18 21:21:37 <penguin>	i think we did - style guide said It's a guide for NGO and grass roots activists.
Nov 18 21:21:49 <penguin>	is that were we still are?
Nov 18 21:21:59 <BenG>	sound good to me
Nov 18 21:22:10 <marker>	Regarding the target group... I would like to suggest that we change the title of the book, by a single letter. I think we should use "Tech Tools for Activism", rather than "... for Activists".
Nov 18 21:22:20 <penguin>	so not a generic floss is cool, but a how to make floss work for activists?
Nov 18 21:22:24 <marker>	The reason being that these tools are really for everyone, and in general I think that for people to identify as 'activists' is counterproductive because it propagates the idea that political activity is just for a special group of people. I think what we want is for everyone to be empowered to undertake political activity, so we should encourage everyone to think about their activism, rather than addressing a narrow self-defined social group like 'activis
Nov 18 21:23:05 <beth>	I have neither an objection to nor a strong opinion about the title marker
Nov 18 21:23:14 <beth>	so go ahead
Nov 18 21:23:15 <beth>	or don't
Nov 18 21:23:29 <marker>	ta. any other thoughts?
Nov 18 21:23:38 <BenG>	marker, good point, we've discussed this in the yellow meet up too
Nov 18 21:23:48 <BenG>	and most are in favour of a title change
Nov 18 21:24:15 <BenG>	but in terms of defining what we want to do with the booklet - is everyone happy 
Nov 18 21:24:25 <BenG>	to say that activists and NGOs are were we are at?
Nov 18 21:24:32 <beth>	yup
Nov 18 21:24:36 <penguin>	yup
Nov 18 21:24:44 <marker>	no, for the reason I just said
Nov 18 21:24:51 <BenG>	given that activists include everyone politically active, and not just a subclass of human
Nov 18 21:25:03 <BenG>	we could change the wording marker
Nov 18 21:25:14 <penguin>	marker - can you define the target audience?
Nov 18 21:25:23 <marker>	hmmm...
Nov 18 21:25:44 <marker>	people who want to use tech tools in their political activity?
Nov 18 21:26:02 <BenG>	I'd go for that
Nov 18 21:26:29 <BenG>	any pluses or minuses on that peeps?
Nov 18 21:26:49 <penguin>	i agree - think it's a matter of words, not intent. we can change words at quite a late stage
Nov 18 21:27:23 <BenG>	or marker could edit the notes on flossmanuals right now if we all agree
Nov 18 21:27:56 <BenG>	...
Nov 18 21:28:23 <BenG>	okay, no consensus on that then
Nov 18 21:28:33 <BenG>	can we move on?
Nov 18 21:28:48 <bou>	i like marker's title, just a bit too long
Nov 18 21:29:02 <penguin>	i thought there was consensus - a guide for people using IT for political activity
Nov 18 21:29:06 <marker>	bou: it's the same length, I changed only the last letter
Nov 18 21:29:12 <beth>	I like it
Nov 18 21:29:14 <bou>	we can have a doodle vote... since we don't do crabgrass :/
Nov 18 21:29:25 <BenG>	no, that's consensus now
Nov 18 21:29:33 <BenG>	marker, change that wording if you will
Nov 18 21:29:37 <marker>	ok, I'll edit it now
Nov 18 21:29:44 <BenG>	right next point
Nov 18 21:29:47 <bou>	i meant this title: tech tools 4 people who want to use tech tools in their political activity?
Nov 18 21:30:06 <BenG>	it's not a title bou
Nov 18 21:30:14 <BenG>	it's for the style guide
Nov 18 21:30:30 <bou>	only because it hasn't been proposed as a title ... 
Nov 18 21:30:34 <bou>	anyway we can move on
Nov 18 21:30:38 <BenG>	:)
Nov 18 21:30:50 <marker>	do I need a permission setting to edit the notes?
Nov 18 21:31:06 <BenG>	all suggestions for booklet titles sent to the mailing list reckon
Nov 18 21:31:13 <BenG>	marker, nope
Nov 18 21:31:19 <BenG>	you should be able to edit
Nov 18 21:31:24 <BenG>	you'll need to log in though
Nov 18 21:31:35 <marker>	am logged in, can view not edit
Nov 18 21:31:50 <bou>	i'd rather focus on this meeting ...
Nov 18 21:32:00 <marker>	fine I'll get help later
Nov 18 21:32:16 <bou>	where are we in the discussion/agenda, facilitator? :)
Nov 18 21:32:30 <BenG>	leave it if there's trouble, it's all logged on IRC
Nov 18 21:32:36 <bou>	i thought we had agreed on the target reader...
Nov 18 21:32:38 <BenG>	marker, actually I just did the edit
Nov 18 21:32:45 <BenG>	bou yest
Nov 18 21:32:47 <BenG>	yes
Nov 18 21:32:50 <BenG>	lets move on
Nov 18 21:32:53 <bou>	yep
Nov 18 21:32:53 <BenG>	next item
Nov 18 21:33:05 <BenG>	Agree / restate what we are trying to convey (e.g. why to do something, how do do something) (penguin)
Nov 18 21:33:08 <BenG>	================================================
Nov 18 21:33:19 <BenG>	penguin, have we covered this enough too?
Nov 18 21:33:43 <penguin>	think so, and it links to the next item, so perhaps move to that
Nov 18 21:34:32 <BenG>	Should each article have a common structure? If so, what? (penguin) 
Nov 18 21:34:35 <BenG>	============================================
Nov 18 21:34:58 <BenG>	this is about pinning down more structure into the style guide and following it
Nov 18 21:35:17 <BenG>	anyone any ideas on this|
Nov 18 21:35:18 <BenG>	?
Nov 18 21:35:20 <penguin>	BG - that's exactly it
Nov 18 21:35:37 <BenG>	have you any suggestions though penguin ?
Nov 18 21:35:49 <beth>	so are we scrapping user journeys completely or just having them in a pullquote box?
Nov 18 21:35:54 <bou>	my idea is that is good as it stands, only examples should be real if possible and shorter if not
Nov 18 21:36:11 <BenG>	I think both real, and shorter
Nov 18 21:36:20 <marker>	shorter and real with links to full story?
Nov 18 21:36:24 <bou>	well. real examples tend to be complicated ...
Nov 18 21:36:26 <penguin>	my ideas are start each section with a bullet list that summarises what the piece is about
Nov 18 21:36:28 <BenG>	marker, cool
Nov 18 21:36:38 <penguin>	then have the real life story
Nov 18 21:36:38 <BenG>	penguin, yes we need some summary
Nov 18 21:36:48 <penguin>	then the article
Nov 18 21:36:52 <BenG>	penguin, I like that
Nov 18 21:37:04 <penguin>	then a section called 'what next' with links
Nov 18 21:37:10 <BenG>	ooo nice
Nov 18 21:37:18 <beth>	penguin I like that too
Nov 18 21:37:22 <bou>	m3shroom didn't want to scrap the real life example, ...
Nov 18 21:37:28 <marker>	me too
Nov 18 21:37:35 <bou>	so, summary real life then article?
Nov 18 21:37:44 <BenG>	bou, looks like we are all up for keeping it in abbreviated form
Nov 18 21:37:58 <beth>	yep
Nov 18 21:38:03 <marker>	y
Nov 18 21:38:04 <BenG>	bou that's what penguin has already said
Nov 18 21:38:09 <bou>	what is the "what next"?
Nov 18 21:38:32 <BenG>	so:
Nov 18 21:38:38 <bou>	ok never mind me just go ahead
Nov 18 21:38:48 <penguin>	the article is the 'why this is an issue'; the what next is what you do about it
Nov 18 21:38:57 <bou>	ok
Nov 18 21:39:01 <marker>	bou: it could be learn more about x,y,z... take action a,b,c
Nov 18 21:39:16 <penguin>	marker +1
Nov 18 21:39:19 <bou>	ok
Nov 18 21:39:41 <BenG>	bulleted intro -> real life story ->article -> what next
Nov 18 21:39:52 <marker>	sounds good
Nov 18 21:40:34 <BenG>	penguin, surely the bullets and the real life story should tell you why it's an issue
Nov 18 21:41:08 <BenG>	so maybe more like:
Nov 18 21:41:47 <BenG>	bulleted intro -> real life story -> what next {learn more about} {action to take}
Nov 18 21:42:09 <BenG>	hmm, you're right, there needs to be at least a paragraph spelling out what the issues are
Nov 18 21:42:18 <BenG>	bulleted intro -> real life story ->article -> what next
Nov 18 21:42:32 <BenG>	=>
Nov 18 21:42:43 <BenG>	bulleted intro -> real life story -> why is this an issue -> what next
Nov 18 21:43:22 <BenG>	I think that's a good structure, shall I put it in the notes on FLOSSmanuals and then we move on
Nov 18 21:43:27 <BenG>	?
Nov 18 21:43:32 <bou>	yes
Nov 18 21:43:38 <beth>	yes
Nov 18 21:43:48 <penguin>	bulleted intro -> real life story -> why is this an issue & what you can do -> what next (find out more & how to do it) 
Nov 18 21:43:56 <bou>	i think we need to send a summary of the log to the list anyway tho
Nov 18 21:44:41 <penguin>	yep - next item. Kittens!
Nov 18 21:45:03 <beth>
Nov 18 21:45:12 <penguin>
Nov 18 21:45:24 <BenG>	<bou> i think we need to send a summary of the log to the list anyway tho
Nov 18 21:45:27 <BenG>	yes indeed
Nov 18 21:45:48 <BenG>	we'll find a volunteer for that at the end
Nov 18 21:46:30 <beth>	In general: more pictures in the booklet?
Nov 18 21:46:35 <beth>	not necessarily of cats
Nov 18 21:46:41 <beth>	although I would like there to be at least one cat
Nov 18 21:46:51 <marker>	line art, no greyscale?
Nov 18 21:46:53 *	bou can't believe this :)
Nov 18 21:47:03 <bou>	greyscale is more affordable
Nov 18 21:47:11 <penguin>	Yes - more pics. but high res pics
Nov 18 21:47:12 <bou>	and i bet is more environmentally friendly too
Nov 18 21:47:37 <BenG>	all the printers we will encounter won't need line art
Nov 18 21:47:48 <BenG>	they'll be fine with pics
Nov 18 21:48:13 <marker>	really? I saw some pretty poor repro in the last bacth
Nov 18 21:48:18 <marker>	batch
Nov 18 21:48:39 <BenG>	true, but we didn't AM the pics properly
Nov 18 21:48:47 <penguin>	i know a couple of artists that might be up for doing stuff. will continue to buy them beer!
Nov 18 21:49:06 <BenG>	would be good to have a consistent are style all the way through
Nov 18 21:49:19 <BenG>	Should there be more kittens in the booklet? (tabby) 
Nov 18 21:49:23 <BenG>	=====================================
Nov 18 21:49:40 <BenG>	I think we are all agreed on a least on kitten in the booklet
Nov 18 21:49:50 <marker>	or kittler?
Nov 18 21:49:52 <BenG>	perhaps it could be kitten themed
Nov 18 21:49:53 <beth>	that is the most important outcome of this meting
Nov 18 21:50:04 *	bou don't want kittens
Nov 18 21:50:19 <marker>	robot kittens?
Nov 18 21:50:20 *	bou can't believe it's a serious part of the agenda ..
Nov 18 21:50:26 <penguin>	will no one think of the puppies?
Nov 18 21:50:34 <BenG>	BELIIEVE IT
Nov 18 21:50:46 <BenG>	I don't agree with the puppies idea
Nov 18 21:50:59 <BenG>	would considere horses or cuttlefish/squid though
Nov 18 21:51:00 <beth>	we can't have a kitten and a puppy in the booklet, they will tear it apart chasing each other
Nov 18 21:51:15 <BenG>	right next item on the agenda
Nov 18 21:52:02 <BenG>	Develop task list to move forward & assign roles as far as possible (penguin) 
Nov 18 21:52:06 <BenG>	=========================================================
Nov 18 21:52:26 *	beth would like to continue proof-reading
Nov 18 21:52:37 <BenG>	cool
Nov 18 21:53:01 <BenG>	any other offers?
Nov 18 21:53:14 *	BenG would like to do a quick review of current content still
Nov 18 21:53:16 <BenG>	and
Nov 18 21:53:44 *	BenG will continue to look at publishing it with Scribus and automatic porting from FLOSS manuals
Nov 18 21:53:56 *	bou happy to proof read 
Nov 18 21:54:00 <marker>	21:17 <@m3shrom> i've got to go - sorry about that but i'm up for doing an inicial rewrite  on 'uploading media' - 'status net' - 'anonymous blogging' 
Nov 18 21:54:09 <bou>	yep
Nov 18 21:54:19 *	beth is also happy to review a couple of chapters
Nov 18 21:54:34 *	marker is too. But which?
Nov 18 21:54:58 <BenG>	beth, just pick them as you see fit, if there's a review on the wiki already, I won't do another review
Nov 18 21:55:21 <BenG>	if you are going to take one on, maybe write a not on the wiki about it
Nov 18 21:55:23 <beth>	okay, sounds good to me
Nov 18 21:55:29 <BenG>	under that relevant section
Nov 18 21:55:34 <marker>	ok
Nov 18 21:55:50 <penguin>	i'll have a go a putting existing stuuf into a more common format as discussed
Nov 18 21:55:51 <BenG>	we could actually start fitting the current articles into the new style guide we've discussed
Nov 18 21:55:59 *	BenG snap
Nov 18 21:56:40 <BenG>	I'll publicise our style guide enhancenments and write them up properly in the notes section
Nov 18 21:57:14 <beth>	cool
Nov 18 21:57:36 <marker>	jolly good, does anything else need doing?
Nov 18 21:58:32 <BenG>	I've just looked at the todo list and they've mostly been done tonight!
Nov 18 21:58:34 <BenG>	get in!
Nov 18 21:58:36 <penguin>	looking good from where i am
Nov 18 21:58:57 <penguin>	we can get in touch via teh list if we need to get together again
Nov 18 21:58:58 <beth>	and we finished on time
Nov 18 21:59:01 <marker>	anyone up for sorting out the redirection things?
Nov 18 21:59:11 <BenG>	Make a resources list
Nov 18 21:59:11 <BenG>	Make a participants list 
Nov 18 21:59:14 <BenG>	they need doing
Nov 18 21:59:24 <penguin>	anyone else planning on being in bradford in jan?
Nov 18 21:59:29 <beth>	if someone can tell me how the redirection works I am happy to change all the links in the booklet
Nov 18 21:59:30 <BenG>	me and mike will continue to look at redirection things
Nov 18 21:59:30 *	gdm ( has joined #hacktionlab
Nov 18 21:59:40 *	gdm is probably a bit late. sorry
Nov 18 21:59:53 <BenG>	oooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhhh gggggggggggddddddddddddddmmmmmmmmmmm
Nov 18 21:59:57 <BenG>	you big slacker
Nov 18 22:00:08 <BenG>	we are just wrapping up
Nov 18 22:00:15 <BenG>	after a productive meeting
Nov 18 22:00:15 <beth>	you missed us talking about kittens and everything
Nov 18 22:00:31 <gdm>	kool. look forward to the summary :)
Nov 18 22:00:49 <BenG>	I'll publish the cat/kitten related links soon
Nov 18 22:01:16 <BenG>	anyone want to write up a summary?